War in Iraq Protesting

[duckie1978]

I know this is a vegan website, but I feel that the war is an important global issue, whether or not you are in support of it.

I wanted to find out from those not in the US, if there have been any protesting going on? I keep hearing that there are some here and there but wasn't sure where. Anyone heard, seen or participated in any since the war began last night?

[EricP]

Here in Canada (neighbor to the United States), everyone seems to be protesting. Not even our Premiere supports it without U.N backing.

I happen to agree with the United States on this one, as they seem to be the only ones who see the threat of a man like Saddam Hussein, and are willing to stop it.

If the world turned vegan, we may never see war.

Regards,

EricP

[Lucy S]

Hi Duckie,

Yes, there have been protests around the globe, including some large ones in Canada. In Toronto (and elsewhere globally) there have been monthly peace rallies/marches and my understanding is that there were protests starting here in Toronto soon after the first bombs were dropped (at the US Consulate). We have been to some of the peace rallies with our daughter. The world would be a better place without Sadam, but war at this time? Sorry, as an American (and a Canadian), I think Bush really wanted a war and nothing was going to stop him.

[EricP]

I agree with you Lucy. Bush was out for war, but who else would do anything about Saddam?

EricP

[Lucy S]

I don't think Bush, Blair et al. made the case for war at this time. They wanted a war and wanted it quickly, so they made it happen. The price will be countless innocent lives (many of whom, I am sure, want Saddam gone, too), and billions (trillions?) of dollars spent killing people (plus all of the expertise focused on war). That money could be better spent improving the lives of people in the Middle East (and elsewhere globally), which would do far more good. How about actually putting the money into the UN and helping them disarm Iraq? Feed people, educate people, promote democracy. (Not forgetting that the US owes mucho dollars in UN fees, like they will ever get it now). Gotta' go. Abby needs me. Lucy

[EricP]

Lucy,

In a perfect world, all the efforts and money made by any of the countries involved in this war would go to helping people, and not killing them. Unfortunately, we live in a world that military force to solve problems; kills animals for food; locks their kids in a hot car in the summer, etc.....

Believe me, the teachings of Ghandi are far more powerful than the fists of the United States, but against Saddam... who knows.

Regards,

EricP

[Lucy S]

Believe me, I'm not ignorant and know that what I hope for would be a more perfect world. I'm not kidding myself. There is no way many (if any) of our political leaders would divert funds from making war to preventing it. However, I fully believe that more could have been done to prevent this war and the damage it will cause. War is a desparate act and should be a very last resort, when all else has failed. I don't think we were at that point. We don't agree. C'est la vie.

Unfortunately, the teachings of Ghandi are not more powerful, in my view, or more people would live by them, rather than by using force.

And, to go back to the original point of this thread. There are very large protests going on in Toronto right now.

[veganerd]

i have an even better idea. how about the us stops putting dictators in power!!!!

September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.

1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis. (good ol oliver north who is now a news correspondant currently covering this war!!! how nifty)

1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.
(the excuse used for desert storm and even still for this war)

1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.


2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

September 11, 2001: Osama Bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

why is it that the media doesnt mention any of this in their war coverage? maybe if it werent for the us putting saddam in power then our country would be bombing canada or something :O)

[vegma]

I know you asked about protests outside the US, but there are a lot of protests going on here too. I haven't actively participated (not my style), but before this all got started, I wrote letters to congressmen, senators, and the president himself. Prior to that I was part of the 51% that did NOT vote for Bush. I feel this is all I can realistically do to "make a difference" at this point...and it obviously DIDN'T make a difference:(

[Lucy S]

One of my problems with this war (and there are many) is the hypocrisy I see in US foreign policy, as adequately pointed out by veganerd. We helped create Hussein and bin Laden and now they are enemies (and they are, I'm not denying that). It also becomes random - who we attack, who we ignore, who we try to bring around to our way of thinking through trade (i.e. China - somehow trade will bring democracy there, vs. Cuba who we cannot trade with because they are communists). I also take issue with the proof the US government has said it has regarding Hussein's links to terrorist organizations and weapons of mass destruction. When the UN inspectors were in Iraq, for a long time, the US said it had all kinds of proof, but didn't provide it to the inspectors so that they could do their job thoroughly. And then... "the inspections weren't working" said the government. I think there is always (almost always?) another path and the US, Britain et al. didn't try hard enough to find that other path or work with it. Yes, the UN has had 12 years to disarm Iraq and hasn't done it. How much has the US et al. done to help the UN with that task over that time period? How much have they done to support change from within Iraq (and I don't mean arming some group to violently overthrow Hussein, creating another enemy group down the road)? Sigh. It is a depressing time. War always is.

[alexis]

I've been abusing George Bush ever since i got the war news yesterday...i got up at ten after a seven hour night as a banquet waitress and the first thing i hear is war...how depressing is that? well it seems pretty far away from me but i really pity all the women and girls who have brothers, fathers, boyfriends or husbands out there fighting...my opinoin is that it's a personal thing between Saddam and President Bush....so why should people die to satisfy one man's desire to carry on such a thing? The whole weapons thing is just an excuse to get the war started....what a lousy world....
Someone said there are three reasons why Bush wants the war. 1) He wants to rule the world 2) he want to prevent the euro from becoming the strongest trading currency or something like that and 3) he doesn't want China to develop and become as powerful as the US...I want to start some kind of a peace rally...there's one going on in the university here...people wearing white ribbons for peace...it doesn't seem right for such a thing to happen...if we're so civilised why is there still war?

[molly]

I don't think there are any obvious answers to any of this. As an American, I'm often embarrassed by the decisions & hypocrisy, etc. of our politicians. I am anti-war in general, & while I don't know how a monster like Saddam can be removed from his power peacefully, I have still shed my share of tears over all this, especially the last several days. My idealistic mind says there should never, ever be war, but my idealistic mind doesn't include crazy evil hurtful people who need to be dealt with, somehow, for the sake of the innocent people. Unfortunately, very few of us can possibly be fully informed of what is really going on around the world & how & why. After all, we have to rely on what we hear on the news & try to filter the truth out of it--difficult if not impossible. There are always at least two sides to everything & frequently both sides are legitimate in one way or another. No, violence doesn't create peace, but failing to stop the violence of others doesn't create peace either. My country's behavior often makes me cringe, but underneath all the garbage I still think our ideals are more right than wrong. But I am happy that so many people are protesting. All I can say is that I hope it ends very very very soon. And Eric is right: if only the world population became vegan, our problems would be largely solved! :confused:

[Compsognathus]

"i have an even better idea. how about the us stops putting dictators in power!!!!" .....

Right on!!

[Bette]

It's 'not my style' either, vegma, but I have somehow found myself involved in some of the many anti-war demos in this country. If you'd have told me a year ago that I would by now be a vegan anti-war protester, I would have laughed, but there seems to have been a shift somewhere.
I thought you might be interested to know, those of you not in the UK, that as well as the usual suspects, there is a huge anti-war youth movement, with large numbers of schoolchildren holding their own protests. After years of complaining about the political apathy of the British youth, now of course the authorities are complaining about children getting involved in 'things they don't understand'! Can't have it both ways though, can they?
There is a suggestion that the nation is caught up in the 'excitement' of demonstrating, but I have never been so bored in my life as I was on the London demo - I generally like to avoid large noisy crowds, particularly if they involve Edwin Starr being played through a cheap megaphone, and terrible, terrible chanting. Possibly if we could protest by going for a nice quiet walk through the countryside I'd find it exciting . . .
Anyway, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

[Blinky]

I actually participated in a peace demonstration myself, but I am also disheartened by all the negativity toward the US and Britain on this issue. I would have thought that most people would not have seen this issue so "black and white".

I have to be honest and say that I am conflicted, and I think that anyone who thinks they have all the answers are kidding themselves.

Do you really trust Saddam? If he had the opportunity to take your country land and claim it as his own he would. America and Britain will not take Iraq and claim it as their own. They will leave it with the Iraqi people. Don't doubt for a minute that If Saddam had the power to inflict his totalitarian regime on you he would. A lot of people would be singing a different tune then, wondering why no one was helping them. I bet that is how a lot of Iraqis have felt for quite a while. We are spoiled with our freedoms. Who are we to think other people wouldn't like to have a better life as well?

Imagine for a moment, war protestors back during the American Civil war, for example. No one wants war, but I wonder how America might be different today if things continued on "business as usual" with out the war.

The same people who are complaining about US policy would be the first ones to say: "Why didn't anybody do anything to stop Saddam?" in the event he used his biological and chemical weapons.

It's real easy to sit back and say what you would do when faced with such a decision because you're not.

However, I admire all people in favor of peace. If all the people the world were like you, we would have no problem.

[Blinky]

in regard to the US putting dictators is power, I believe they probably felt that at the time, they were supporting the lesser of two evils. Hindsight is 20/20. We've all done things we wish we could take back. Hopefully, something has been learned.

[Bette]

"America and Britain will not take Iraq and claim it as their own."
There are those of us who are concerned that that is exactly what they/we will do (albeit not so blatantly) and if they "leave it with the Iraqi people," then it will be the Iraqi people they/we have chosen and installed . . . history repeating itself?

"Don't doubt for a minute that If Saddam had the power to inflict his totalitarian regime on you he would."
I don't doubt it, there are people all over the world who want to rule it, but currently only one seems to have that power.

I think that possibly force would have eventually been the only way to deal with the situation, but I think it has been used far too early, before all the other avenues were exhausted. I'm deeply concerned about the effect this will have on the world order, now the UN has been ridden roughshod over and I'm worried about the position of the UK in Europe now we've been rather rude to France and Germany - although we do seem to have the support of Spain, the type of support which brings photo opportunities in the Azores, not the type of support which involves actually sending in troops ...

a bientot mes amies xxx

[Dr. Toxic]

Here in Minneapolis there have been a good number of demos, almost daily. Just a couple of days ago well over 40 people were arrested shutting down and blocking the entrances to the Federal Building downtown to make a point that business should not, and would not, go on as usual as long as this war continued...